(Business Lounge Journal – Foreign Insight)
In a world increasingly shaped by international collaboration, the perspectives of those who bridge nations are invaluable. We interviewed the ambassador of Denmark, H.E. Sten Frimodt Nielsen and learned through this unique lens; the rarely-publicized relationship between Denmark and Indonesia.
We explore the challenges, priorities, and aspirations that define Danish soft diplomacy in Indonesia, from energy and waste management to the limited military sector.
BLJ: Business Lounge Journal
SFN: H.E. Sten Frimodt Nielsen
BLJ: What are the current priorities in the diplomatic relationship between Denmark and Indonesia right now?
SFN: Well, looking at it from the top of the agenda, geographically, we are quite far apart—it’s hard to imagine countries more distant from each other. We’re also very different in size and scale. Denmark has a population of just over 5.5 million, which is smaller than Jakarta alone, and our economic influence differs as well. Despite these differences, we share a common interest in and commitment to a rules-based international order.
Overall, looking at it, I think our two countries will share that approach. We need an international rules-based order. We cannot have anarchy rule. There must be rules that govern the interaction between nations. And I think that we have a shared interest in working together on that very broad agenda.
We would also share the objective of reducing global crises and tensions.
If you ask a diplomat, what is the top priority of a diplomat is to keep things calm and under control and rules to be followed, and things like that. I think that’s an agenda that we share.
Moving down from that very top and broad and general agenda, there are quite a few specific areas where we have close bilateral cooperation between Denmark and Indonesia.
You’ve spoken to my predecessors, so you must have heard the term “strategic sector cooperation” before. The SSC. These are corporations that we have between Denmark and Indonesia, in areas such as; energy, environment, maritime cooperation, food, and agriculture.
We have diplomats dealing with these areas, but they’re not from the foreign ministry. They’re from our line ministries. So, they provide expertise and we cooperate directly with Indonesian counterparts here.
And due to the technical expertise, that we have in these areas, I think we have developed a very strong and fruitful relationship there.
To be more specific, we are talking about waste management. We are talking about how we can contribute to Indonesia’s energy transition and things like that. We have experts working here and working closely with our Indonesian counterparts.
BLJ: So, what are the most significant areas of collaboration between both of our nations at this stage?
SFN: We have limited resources. We cannot act like some major players; come in here with huge grants and across-the-board support for Indonesia. What we have to do, is to try to see where we have something that we can offer in the sense of technical assistance, where we think we have some kind of expertise that would be of interest to Indonesia. So, instead of coming and saying; “we would like to do this and this and this and this”, I like to envision it as this image of two magnets – When you were a child, you would be playing with magnets and then you found out that they’re (not clicking, because they’re) not facing the right way.
See, the magnets have to face the right way (to click), and that means that what Denmark thinks that we can contribute to Indonesia’s development and strategic interest corresponds to what Indonesia would like to see from us. If the magnets face the right way, it’s a perfect match. So, what we are trying to do is we’re trying to identify areas where we think we have something that we can offer in some niches, that is actually also something that Indonesia would like to cooperate with us about. So, that’s why we cooperate on energy.
That’s (also) why we cooperate on waste management. That’s why we cooperate on various agricultural products like dairy farming, organic dairy, and food loss and waste. So, issues that have been identified as something where we can collaborate.
BLJ: Moving on to the Military partnership, I want to ask a bit about Danish radar that Indonesia bought for our locally-made ship (Sampari-class fast attack craft), the Terma Scantor 4603 X-band radar.
SFN: While I’m not an expert in military technology, I can confirm that Terma is a major player in the field, specializing in both civilian and military equipment, including radars, operating systems, and weapons systems. Notably, they contribute significantly to the internal “brain” of the F-35 fighter jet. In fact, you’re working with the same supplier.
BLJ: So, how does Denmark view Indonesia’s role in Southeast Asia and how does this influence your political goals?
SFN: It’s obvious. I mean, I often tell people when they come here and they want to learn about Indonesia, I say, well, look at the map.
…Not only look at the map of Indonesia; but look at the map of Southeast Asia. And you will see that Indonesia is a major country in so many respects: size, economic weight, but also, of course, strategic location. I would like to say that Indonesia, as we see it, like I said before, shares the same values in a rules-based society.
We feel that Indonesia is a strong political partner in the region and a very, very important voice within ASEAN. So, these are areas where we feel that Indonesia is a partner that cannot be overestimated in importance.
So, what I would like to do while I’m here, and what I know that my predecessors did and what my successor will do, is to work continuously to bring our shared values further and to increase the partnership that I think we have established.
BLJ: What do you think needs to be improved in that relationship?
SFN: When you say it ‘needs to be improved’, it kind of implies that there is something that is not necessarily working. I wouldn’t look at it that way. And I would say that we have a very strong partnership.
We are working closely together in so many areas. So, I think that we have a very well-functioning bilateral relationship.
It doesn’t mean that there is no room for improvement in some areas. I would put it that way.
You say bilateral, but there are some aspects where the bilateral is also slightly multilateral. So, I would start by saying that one major improvement that I think would be in the common interest of our two countries would be if it would be possible after many years of negotiations to conclude a trade agreement between the European Union and Indonesia.
I believe this would greatly benefit Denmark, Indonesia, and the European countries as a whole. That would be a very big improvement also in our bilateral relations. Because as I see it, there is a huge potential for increased trade. There are numerous areas where we have valuable offerings to share, and Indonesia also has much to contribute through a freer exchange of goods and services.
If you want me to say something more general, maybe there is scope for a little less bureaucracy – a little less red tape. I think that would make things run more smoothly. So that would be my tiny little contribution to that.
When you say improvements, again, maybe improvement is not the right word, but areas where I would like to see us get even closer together would be what I would call ‘people-to-people contacts’.
I think we should, if possible, have much more exchange between our people, especially young people. We try at the embassy to facilitate student exchanges. So, every year we have Indonesian students and alumnis come to the Danish residence and we have a gathering. They have been studying in Denmark. They come back to Indonesia. They have many good memories and stories to tell.
And we would also like to see it a lot more the other way, Danish students coming to Indonesia, because that is a perfect way to bring the countries closer together. Even though we’re talking about a relatively small portion of people, I think it’s really important because you come back and share your experiences.
I mean, I was an exchange student myself when I was young. I come back and that is the way that you act like some kind of an ambassador. I think these kinds of exchanges are very important. I would like to see a lot more of that.
Also, I think that we should be able to do more in sports exchanges from the same logic. Students, and athletes visiting the countries, come back and maybe establish friendships.
In my opinion that is a very good way to bring countries together. Of course, you didn’t mention badminton in your introduction, but when Indonesians talk about Denmark, they immediately talk about badminton. We have a long history of great badminton players and iconic matches between Danish and Indonesian players.
I’m much older than you. I remember Rudy Hartono playing Svend Pri. You were not born then.
But if you go out to badminton interests in the Indonesian public, they will be able to name several Danish players. Sports can play a role. Not only badminton but also other areas.
Improvement, maybe not. But bringing our countries closer together, I think that there could be some interesting aspects.
BLJ: I’m going to ask you about Danish culture – in particular, the concept of ‘hygge’. Can you explain to me what ‘hygge’ means, and is it applicable to other countries?
SFN: Well, I suppose we all have our definition of hygge in our mind.
My interpretation of hygge ; is this coziness and comfortable feeling when you are together with family or close friends in a relaxed setting. So, no constraints.
And that’s why, for me, hygge is not so much going out for dinner with friends to a restaurant. Hygge for me is very much synonymous with being in a private setting just enjoying each other’s company and just being relaxed – That is being yourself.
That is the Danish concept of hygge in my view.
You’ve asked about its application to other countries. I think theoretically (ha, ha) it’s possible to find hygge in other countries, especially maybe in our Nordic neighboring countries. But I have to say that Danes are particularly known for our informal and relaxed attitude. So, if you really want to experience the true hygge, I think you have to come to Denmark.
BLJ: What’s your favorite Indonesian food?
SFN: I have to admit, I’ve only been here one year, so I’m still working my way up the spice ladder. So, I mean, moderately spiced is okay, but I’m still not there yet where some of your more really spicy dishes will agree with me.
But maybe after a few more years, I will have achieved a higher level of tolerance. But I really like mie goreng with prawns. That’s a very nice dish.
BLJ: So, from all of the provinces that you’ve been to, which one is your favorite?
SFN: I’ve been here one year and there is so much work to do here in Jakarta that I have not been able to go to that many places. And I think it would be unfair of me today after only one year and limited travel to say this is my favorite one. So, I really hope to be able to see so much more in the years to come.
But based on what I have already seen, I have to say among the greatest experiences I’ve had, would be, I think, Borobudur, an amazing place. Here we talk about culture, of course. And then the natural splendor of the Komodo National Park.
That was really a very great experience. But I know that there are so many places out there waiting. So, I’m hoping to have more competition for the first place after a few more years of experience.
BLJ: What do you like from Indonesia? You can say anything, whether it’s about the people or it’s about the situation and anything. And what needs to be improved?
SFN: So, on the top of the list of positive things in Indonesia, I have to put the Indonesian people because this is such an incredibly warm and welcoming people that I’m just blown away by the reception I’ve had here. And not only because when you’re an ambassador, people treat you well and are polite.
Also, people who don’t know who you are, people you meet in the street, in the shops. It’s always a smile. So, I think that the Indonesian population would be at the top of the list of what is great about Indonesia.
And on the list would also be, as I said, the natural splendors. I mean, it is a country full of amazing places just waiting for me to come and visit. And also, coming from a place way up north where the climate is different, I like the weather.
People say, oh, it’s so hot. I mean, its human nature, I think. You always like what you don’t have. The grass is always greener on the other side. So, you come from the north and you think that it’s great when you’re living in a warmer climate. Indonesians like to go to the north because it’s not so hot. Okay, because you’re not used to it. But for me, it’s amazing to be able to live in a country with what I would call a nice climate, even though it rains once in a while.
You asked for a negative list. Well, living in Jakarta, it’s difficult not to talk about traffic and pollution.
If I could pick some things that I would like to see improved, it would be the traffic situation and to reduce the level of pollution. Something that is not limited to Jakarta, unfortunately, and where I think there is scope for improvement would be waste management. It’s not only because we are working together with Indonesia to address this, but because I see it as a huge challenge in Indonesia.
I understand that addressing this issue requires significant resources, but I believe it would be a valuable investment for public authorities. This isn’t just a challenge for ordinary people who are left to deal with unmanaged waste and its consequences. From a tourism perspective, Indonesia’s natural beauty is one of its greatest attractions, drawing visitors from around the world. Ensuring a clean and well-preserved environment would not only enhance the quality of life for residents but also help attract even more tourists, strengthening the country’s appeal.
I believe one of the biggest turn-offs for a tourist traveling across the globe to visit Indonesia is expecting to arrive in a pristine, paradise-like environment, only to encounter litter, plastic bottles, and other waste. Such an experience can leave a lasting negative impression, and first of all that tourist is unlikely to return.
Secondly, he or she is not going to recommend Indonesia as a destination to his or her family or friends. It’s just one aspect of it, but I think that it would be beneficial to Indonesia in so many areas if something could be done about waste management. I know that here in Jakarta initiatives are really coming. I went to a meeting a few weeks ago in Jakarta where the Minister for Environment was very adamant and the encouraging part was that there were so many schoolchildren there.
So, I have a feeling that maybe the younger generation will grow up with a sense that pollution is something we have to fight against, we have to work. And I don’t know if you know it, but here at the embassy, we have a collaboration with Pandawara.
These are high school friends, now they are older, but they are doing cleanups all around Indonesia and they have millions of followers on social media. They are hugely popular and they are very influential and I think they can reach out to a lot of people. And so, I have the hope that waste management will become a bigger priority. Because the way it is now, it’s not working.
BLJ: Could you tell us about the famous Danish historical figure that you admire and what lessons we can learn from his or her life?
SFN: So, the easy answer would be to pick a Nobel Prize winner like Niels Bohr or a world-famous author like Hans Christian Andersen and everybody would know who I was talking about. But I’m going to go with somebody who has a relationship with Indonesia. I’m going to go with Mads Lange who was born in 1807.
Actually, very close to where my house is in Denmark. About as far away from Copenhagen as you can get in a small town. And he had, I think, 10 siblings.
He left his home in this very small town in Denmark at the age of 14 and started to work as a sailor. He traveled around the world – on sailing boats at that time. And eventually, he ended up where? He ended up in Bali.
He settled in Bali and became a rather important figure there. And here is where we come to what he actually achieved. He became instrumental in brokering peace between the Balinese royalty and the Dutch.
Both the Rajas and the Dutch thought that he had done such an amazing job and was somebody who was working for peace. So, they both gave him credit for this, meaning that he must have done something right. I think that what I admire about somebody like Mads Lange is that he sets out at 14 years of age, follows his dream, goes to the other side of the globe, and leaves a legacy as a peacemaker. I think that is a very, very interesting life to have lived. Unfortunately, he died at the age of 48 only, but he is buried in Bali, close to Kuta. There is a museum there.